A Conversation With Jack Wrigley of Webbula

What's it like -after- your startup is acquired? Jack Wrigley has been living that experience in a particularly vivid way, joining the ranks at former sometimes-competitor Webbula after helping Kickbox grow into acquisition. As he shares, it's not all that simple; "giving up your baby" is a long and sometimes emotional process. The mindset shaped by time as an entrepreneur isn't always an exact fit for later roles.

As a long-time figure in the world of email, Jack has a super-informed perspective about it. There's an incredibly complex world of "moving parts" that enable the seemingly-simple act of sending an email around the globe. Those parts are in constant evolution — for example, "deliverability", as Jack says, has become a vital and much-more-common service in just a few years.

Jack is a super-enjoyable guest. He's clearly both passionate and thoughtful about his market space; his story about the T-Mobile texting experience shows the professional value of staying open and observant in the moment. Jack and Matthew spend considerable time kicking around how sms and email are evolving together, and speculate on where that might go.

A great conversation to put some depth to "just hit send."

TRANSCRIPT

A Conversation With

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Good

[00:00:11] Matthew Dunn: morning. This is Dr. Matthew Dunn, host of the Future of email. My guest today my buddy Jack Wrigley of Wila Jack. Yes. Nice. Nice to see you. Good to see you. Yeah.

[00:00:21] Jack Wrigley: Thank you. It's good

to

[00:00:22] Matthew Dunn: be seen. You're, you're, you're a guy with some serious time in the email space. Yes.

[00:00:29] Jack Wrigley: Well, Um, I think so, but think so, you know, when I compare my, when I compare myself to others, I, I'm still maybe a newbie, , ,

[00:00:37] Matthew Dunn: uh, take people a bit backwards, Ula now and then at least a couple of the companies in activities before that.

[00:00:45] Jack Wrigley: Yeah, yeah, for sure. So I, I kind of, uh, uh, Wandered into the email industry back in 2014, , um, I, I won't bore you with all the details, but I was approached by a, uh, VC in Dallas, um, with regard to this [00:01:00] company they were looking at potentially investing in mm-hmm. and at the time that that little company was called Kickbox.

And, um, I met. Um, you know, the primary founder of the company and, uh, we just totally hit it off. Um, I had had some experience in email specifically around integrating email into a mobile application, so I had a kind of a general idea of. You know, kind of the technical aspect of email and whatnot. Um, but, uh, he and I joined forces and never looked back and kind of built, built kickbox over a seven year period.

Um, we sold that company in late 2 20 20, um, so almost two years ago, which is almost hard to believe. And, um, continued to, uh, to work there for about a year. Um, and then when I decided to leave, Reached out to the, the industry, and of course, WILA has always been, uh, a, a gracious company. Friendly competitor, if you will.

Mm-hmm. . And, um, it just worked out. So BU was looking for someone like me and [00:02:00] I was looking for someone like them. And here we are. There you, you go. And that, that kinda brings you up to, I

[00:02:05] Matthew Dunn: had the opportunity to have, uh, your colleague from we, Jenna. Um, on an episode, Gosh, I think she was 20, 21 ear earlier, earlier on for this, uh, podcast.

But, um, yeah, run, run down for people what ULA does and focuses on, cuz it's pretty fascinating.

[00:02:23] Jack Wrigley: Yeah, for sure. So at the, at the core, ULA is a data company. Uh, we have kind of two facets of that. Uh, one is, uh, known as email hygiene. Um, I like to call it. Threat detection, but at the end of the day, it's a combination of email verification.

Mm-hmm. , uh, plus a number of filters that, um, we help identify, uh, kind of nefarious things in deliverable email that can really cause, you know, legitimate marketers issues. Yeah. Um, the other side of our business is, um, definitely data driven. And, um, I tend to not necessarily hang out on that side of the business too much, but, [00:03:00] um, very respected.

Uh, we've been in business for 13 years. Oh, really? Wow. Didn't realize that. The, the, Yeah, no, I mean, it's, it's a great story and just, you know, high level story. You know, whitelist started out as ans p I don't know if you're aware of that. I

[00:03:13] Matthew Dunn: did not know.

[00:03:15] Jack Wrigley: Yeah. So, and I mean like, like everything else, you know, the, the company started out down one path Yeah.

And, uh, quickly, uh, their, their customers were running into, guess what? Deliverability issues. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so the smart, smart folks at Wus started creating their own technology around helping, uh, The customers at that time with their deliverability issues, and it just morphed into, gosh, the, the, the challenges of deliverability and coming up with great tool sets to help, uh, you know, reach the inbox, far outweigh just sending emails.

So the EESP portion was, was dropped off and the company has ever since stayed focused on, you know, quality data and helping, helping.

[00:03:55] Matthew Dunn: I read somewhere once that every, every company in the social, in [00:04:00] the sort of social media space starts as a dating platform. I wonder if we , I wonder if we'll find that every company in email started as ans p

[00:04:12] Jack Wrigley: Well, you know, a lot of the technology companies did. You know, I mean the pro, I mean, if you really think about it, Yeah. What starts, the whole process is hitting send. Yeah. And that's where it kind of goes off into this crazy world that most people that hit send have no idea really what's going on. Well, even after, So go ahead.

Oh, go ahead. No, go ahead. No, yeah, I was gonna say, even after so many years in the business, I'm not totally sure what goes on after you hit

[00:04:36] Matthew Dunn: send. Oh yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's nuts. And, and we're already guilty of a little bit of, of more than a little bit of inside baseball. You know, five years ago if someone would've said deliverability, I would've said, That's a bummer of a speech impediment.

And, and now , , now I use the term, but, oh yeah, that, that, you know, I hit sand and it actually arrives. It's not that [00:05:00] simple. And there's a lot of astonishingly voluntary. Self-policing to try to keep us all from being completely submerged in emails we didn't ask for. And that to me is what deliverability is all about.

[00:05:16] Jack Wrigley: Yeah, there's no doubt. And you know, there's, uh, really that kind of comes into two general buckets. There, there's legitimate email marketers that just run into issues. Mm-hmm. , they're, they're making mistakes. Um, there's no ill will intent. But then of course you have the, the other side that are the spammers and things of that nature.

And Yeah. Um, you know, fortunately on the, on the spammer side of the, the business, most of those folks are looking for the cheapest, fastest way to do something. Yeah. Um, yeah. One of the, one of the great things, at least about, uh, you know, WEA is we're, we're not self-service, we're not the cheapest. I mean, there's lots of really cool safeguards put in to ensure that we're only dealing with legit, legitimate folks.

But, um, it's, it's astonishing at how, how much, how much of a [00:06:00] challenge it is for a legitimate company to deliver email at times. Well, and,

[00:06:05] Matthew Dunn: and. How expensive it is to make a mistake. And I read somewhere that, that, you know, a good size booboo, let's call it that, uh, from a, from a domain can kind of take them out of the, out of out play in terms of successful delivery of messages for a long time, weeks, months.

[00:06:27] Jack Wrigley: Oh, it takes, it can take an awful long time to, to fix a mistake. And, you know, it's interesting because, you know, you, you mentioned, uh, deliverability just as a term and, you know, years ago it's kinda like a what, you know, like what was that garley that came outta your mouth, that really started to change?

Probably. Three years ago. It is kind of what I'm thinking. Um, and if you, if you kind of look back in time, there were, there were some key deliverability experts in our industry five years ago, and I won't name names, but there's, there, there were just these hallmark. Oh, check with him or check with her, or, [00:07:00] Well, gosh, now it's like everybody's a deliverability expert.

Everybody has a deliverability process or a solution or a program. There's lots of deliverability platforms now to help centers. And it does just go to the fact that deliverability is absolutely key and it can absolutely kill. You know, your ability to generate revenue, if that's what you're trying to do.

Yeah. Yeah.

[00:07:22] Matthew Dunn: Yep. Yeah. Or, or, or, or simply communicate with your customers, right? Yeah, absolutely. It's easy to think in terms of the, the hit on the marketing use of email. But if you had a serious deliverability issue and order confirmation, shipment notifications weren't getting to people, Oh, would that be a problem?

[00:07:43] Jack Wrigley: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I, I was, uh, I, I monitor a, uh, a Slack channel, uh, that's specific to the email world. And, um, it's, it's really interesting to see what, uh, um, kind of what effort has gone in by esp Yes. To really [00:08:00] segregate, if you will, um, those types of messages versus other messages to ensure that, you know, transactional type email messages are.

Slowed down or not stopped. Yeah. Um, you know, years ago, I'll give you a quick little anecdotal story that, that's kind of interesting. Years ago, um, I was working with a company who it was really important for a reservation to get to a person that just built, you know, created something online, right?

Mm-hmm. , well, they were having issues. The, the person would create the reservation and then they wouldn't get the. I mean, how, how annoying is that? And, and that the annoying part is the customer would then pick up the phone and place the phone call into the 800 call center, which is an extremely expensive, you know, component of customer service, right?

Yeah, yeah. If you can handle it with an email, it's much less expensive than handling it with a physical call. Yeah. So, Those types of things are real. Um, and it absolutely can, you know, have kind of crazy impact just, just on your brand. Just, you know, gosh, I, I [00:09:00] got this room and nobody ever sent me an email.

Well, yeah, we did. It just didn't deliver it. Really interesting

[00:09:04] Matthew Dunn: stuff. Yeah. Yeah. It really is. And, and it, it, it, it points to the underlying fact that email, which has, you know, which is one of the longest lived of the. Channels. It, it's, it's become part of the fabric of life, right? Where people keep stuff, where, how do the people expect to get stuff?

And, and that's actually one of the things that fascinates me about this space. Like there's plenty of surprisingly complex tech challenges, but the, the, the social, cultural, global, if you will, fit of that humble looking media is, it's, it's quite astonishing. It's got reach.

[00:09:44] Jack Wrigley: Well, I mean, when you, you really sit back, I mean, I, I don't think, uh, well, I think a lot of people in our industry realize this, but when you really sit back and understand that an email address is the key to virtually anything today, um, especially think about the pandemic [00:10:00] when everybody moved.

From an office to, you know, leveraging tools like what we're using today, Zoom or Amazon or, That all starts with an email address. Yeah. Yeah. It all starts with an it's that crazy, right? You're

[00:10:11] Matthew Dunn: like, Yeah, my gosh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. If you don't have a, don't have an email address, you're digitally homeless.

I think, uh, Ryan Fain said .

[00:10:21] Jack Wrigley: Yeah. And anybody know how many people don't have an email address? That'd be an interesting sta

[00:10:26] Matthew Dunn: Well, it, it, it is fascinating though, that. There are a couple of, there are a couple of places in the planet where it's just not, it's just not the same thing. China in particular, Um, if you ask someone in China their email address, they're going to, uh, hang on a second.

I think I might, Et cetera. Yeah, because, um, the, the app, the app world is so predominant there. Everything runs through, I think it's. I think it's, uh, WeChat everything. Yeah. Runs through [00:11:00] WeChat. You know, you buy stuff, you pay stuff, you get transactions and records, et cetera, et cetera. Some of the same, some of the same functions that email serves, although obviously not the level playing field open internet standards, that email is built on.

So that's a differentiator. Differentiator, right. They've, Yeah, that's pretty cool. They've got their own set of rules anyway. Yep. We'll, we'll use the Lucy goosey once we've got here. Um, switch gears for a second. What was it like to go through the buyout process after seven years with Kickbox? That that had to have been quite a ride.

[00:11:37] Jack Wrigley: Yeah. Um, gosh, I, I think that could be answered in so many different ways. Right. Um, because, you know, the, the, the first one, um, that just pops to mind is the emotional aspect of it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you've heard analogies of, Oh, that's my baby, and, you know, all of those things. And I'm telling you, man, it is absolutely.

The truth. Yeah. It is an [00:12:00] extremely bizarre situation to basically hand over the, the, the keys and become a writer versus the driver. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a crazy thing and I think for founders and people that are kind of involved in early stage startups. It's, it's a real emotional aspect of, of the, the game.

Now, of course, everybody always says, Oh yeah, the payouts are great, and all of that kind of stuff. Okay. That is, that is one aspect, but what's really interesting to me is that, well, that's an element of why I suppose entrepreneurs do what they do. Um, I don't think that's the driver behind what, why entrepreneurs do what they do.

I think, I think an exit, I think making money that way is a byproduct. Of wanting to, you know, create change, wanting to, you know, do something maybe better, wanting to, you know, create a product that can help fill a need or a gap or a niche or something of that nature. I think that's the real driving factor.

And so when you get to that point where you're kind of handing those keys over, [00:13:00] It's a really weird, weird thing there.

[00:13:02] Matthew Dunn: There's no doubt about it. Hmm. Yeah. And, and probably took, probably just take some time at psychological, emotional, a adjustment, Right? It's not your, it's not your possession anymore, so to speak.

[00:13:17] Jack Wrigley: Oh, yeah. Let me, let me tell you. And, uh, I, I wouldn't, uh, um, you know, suggest for a moment that my, my new P found pals at, you know, Ula probably scratch their head sometimes and go. Dude quit thinking that way. Or, or, and not in a bad way. It's just, it's just the way I'm sometimes wired, right? Because you, you've had sort of this position or this viewpoint within a company for so long and then you move to another company, your tendency is to just kind of maintain that viewpoint.

And uh, something that I've been kind of personally trying to challenge myself with is to back off that, I'll call it a ledge , cause it's not really a bad ledge, but kind of back off that a little bit and, you know, learn to apply. You know, my [00:14:00] knowledge, my relationships, my capabilities, my thought around, you know, some other things rather than leading a company rather than, you know, setting the course of a company and stuff like that.

So it's a, it's a really interesting dynamic and I'll tell you flat out. I'm grateful for we, cuz they've allowed me a lot of time and grace and to kind of work through that because that, that has been, um, kind of a challenge to be honest. So,

[00:14:21] Matthew Dunn: yeah. Well, ownership, Yeah, it's a tough balance. I mean, as, as, as an entrepreneur, as a, as a, as a company owner, I'm, you know, way, way too invested, Right?

It's not right, it's not, you know, a j. That you, that you just shut off? Oh, sure. Uh, can be very hard to stay, uh, even remotely balanced, obviously. Um, and you, you, what's the word I'm looking for? To do that startup thing? Well, you have to be willing to do anything, everything it takes to move the company forward.

[00:14:59] Jack Wrigley: Ab [00:15:00] Absolutely. And you know, that goes to, it's, it's interesting because I always, um, took the, the viewpoint in building kickbox. It, it wasn't about, Selling the next deal, per se. It was all about positioning the brand and ensuring that anybody that came to that company felt welcomed, felt, you know, like people were communicating quickly.

Yeah, yeah. You know, there, there were, there, there was no, no shame there. There was just like, Yeah, we're here to help you. Right. Yeah. Um, and I think that that mentality is extremely important when you're building a company. It's, it's, it's not, um, you, you just have to be willing to kind. Do what is necessary to ensure the customer is happy and to ensure that your brand maintains a, you know, a strong position in the industry.

And yeah. You do those things right, and well, and you will naturally just grow it. The, the revenue will come because people wanna do business with you that

[00:15:53] Matthew Dunn: way. Yeah. Yeah. And cuz you're, you're, you're actually making their lives better in, in a fundamental sense, solving a problem. Yeah. And

[00:15:59] Jack Wrigley: you're willing to [00:16:00] do it on a Saturday morning if you have to.

Guess what?

[00:16:02] Matthew Dunn: Yeah. Yeah. If you have to. Um, Yeah. I, in, in this, PO post pandemic moment that we're in. Yeah. And, and a substantial reinvention of work moment. Um, yeah, I, I would think that the advantage startups and small companies have is the potential for an ownership mindset. To be more part of the culture.

I know Lar there are plenty of large companies that are struggling with what's, what's the term? The quiet quitting . Right, Right. Which is, uh, I'll just work within these, these, you know, these boundaries of my j o b. Mm-hmm. , not whatever it takes or whatever the customer needs. And I would think startups have an an an advantage there culturally.

Um, I don't know how, how well it scales, how big it can get. It, it, it's gotta, there's gotta be some good experiments that we don't know about going on right now.

[00:16:53] Jack Wrigley: Yeah. You know, I, I, I'm still pretty familiar with a few startups that have kind of navigated through [00:17:00] the, the pandemic and, and I'll tell you that I think one of the biggest, uh, things that I've noticed is that, It's more important today to ensure that, uh, the culture of your company, to ensure that what you are as a company is really articulated out to your employee base.

Because employees are fragmented now. They're, they're not all meeting in an office where there's maybe motivational posters up and, you know, people are, How you doing today, Matthew? You know, there, there, there's none of that stuff going on. And so I think it's more important today than ever to ensure. Who you are as a company, what you stand for, what your goals are, kind of what's your mission statement, man?

What are you trying to do? That's a super valuable thing to ensure everybody across your organization understands, um, because you are lacking that, that one-on-one kind of. Uh, kind of intimacy of, of relationships, right? And then in the startup world, it's, it's almost compounded because [00:18:00] startups are naturally, Hey, let's lower, let's lower costs.

We won't have an office. This is great. So it's almost, I, it's, it's more important for a, for a startup, for a small company to ensure that. What it is they're trying to do em is emulated and understood across every aspect and, and to work with each employee to help them identify how they help get the company to where it's going.

Right. So in some ways it's really awesome. In other ways, I think it's a tremendous opportunity to sort of reinvent. What it means to, um, you know, have employees really understand what you're doing as a business. And not only understand like, oh, the mission statement, we're gonna be the greatest ride hauling share app in the world.

But really understanding how what they do affects that mission statement. I think that's a really important thing

[00:18:46] Matthew Dunn: today. I, you know what, That was extremely well put. Thank you, . It really was. Yeah. And you know, you think about, you just think about it from a human humanistic level. We're, we're, we're, we're wired to connect with each other.

We're [00:19:00] wired to be social. Arguably we're wired to be tribal. And when going into a physical space and, and being live with coworkers doing. Some of the same stuff to help move something forward. Yeah, yeah. You're gonna absorb that, right? It's gonna become part of, for sure, part of how you inform your decisions.

And now you, you are, you are in Texas, in Wus, based on the East Coast, if I recall right?

[00:19:26] Jack Wrigley: Yes. Yeah, I, I, I work out at Dallas, Texas, and, uh, we is headquartered in just north of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, you know, uh, a few states away, an hour time difference away. And, and quite frankly, what's really interesting about it also is, is the company was formed and built out of Pennsylvania.

And, and it's a different, and it's a, it's really cool to meet people from different parts of the country in terms of how they assess things, whether it's. You know, news going on in the world or whatever that might be. Right? So there's even a, a challenge at times. Not only the, [00:20:00] the physical challenge and the, the, you know, from, Hey, I'm here, there, there, we've got, you know, developers in, in other parts of the, the world, let's say.

It's, it's not only that physical, but it's just the, it's understanding how everybody. Thinks about certain things and trying to get to a place where everybody's comfortable either talking about 'em or feels comfortable that hey, we're all part of the same kind of tribe, if that makes sense. It's really interesting.

[00:20:26] Matthew Dunn: Was kickbox more, uh, geographically in the same place?

[00:20:31] Jack Wrigley: Yeah. So for the most part or up until we got acquired, Absolutely. Okay. Everybody with the exception of, uh, you know, a couple people. Yeah. Uh, and when I say everybody, it was, you know, I don't know what we ended up with, 15 employees or something like that, but, um, yeah, everybody was in Dallas, Bingo.

Dallas. Okay. But, but I had a salesperson in the UK and it was, um, it was such a cool thing to ensure that he always felt part. The company. Yeah. And I think to [00:21:00] this day, if you were to ask him, he would unequivocally say never really felt detached. I mean, there might be, you know, the occasional hell, I didn't know that decision was being made.

Yeah. Right. Because maybe it got made in the office. I don't know. Yeah. But, but in terms of feeling as part of the company, I, I can assure you that he, he would probably say never, ever felt that I wasn't part of that

[00:21:20] Matthew Dunn: company, which is really cool. Good for you guys. Like the not, not easy to pull off. And it sounds like, uh, sounds like ULA has done a heck of a.

As, as well. Um, I didn't realize, I didn't realize how cultural gap was from, from, uh, Pennsylvania, but that actually makes sense of some interactions.

[00:21:38] Jack Wrigley: teasing. Yeah. You know, one, one of the things that, uh, one of the things that w has done that I think is really cool is, um, they have maintained a Friday social.

And, um, it's, it's a time when every Friday, same time, everybody jumps on Zoom. Yeah. And, um, it's, it's actually really fun, you know, giant hat tip hat, uh, hat tip [00:22:00] to, uh, you know, Vince and Doug and the, the. People that kind of implemented it. Yeah. But it's, it's an opportunity to, you know, ask a stupid question and what's your answer?

Right? Yeah. Um, and everybody gets to kind say, Oh, well, yeah, I like Taylor Swift better than Madonna, or whatever that might be. Whatever. But then, but then it's an opportunity for, you know, everybody to say, Hey, how's your week? And. What was great about it. Right, Right. And so it sort of sets up this 30 minute sort of opportunity where everybody sort of huddles around the, the, the, the water cooler.

Everybody gets to, you know, be silly and, and kind of talk about their, their week. Um, and it's pretty beneficial in terms of kind of keeping that cohesiveness of a company in this kind of crazy where, where people

[00:22:40] Matthew Dunn: are spread out time. I would think so. I would think so. Yeah. It's good. Um, and, and it doesn't have, I'm gonna guess, does not.

Uh, an agenda. We've gotta cover A, B, and C. It's intentionally open, uh, it's

[00:22:55] Jack Wrigley: wide open. There's just a handful of kind of high level questions. [00:23:00] First one is always silly question. We're gonna answer a silly question. Literally it can be something like, um, You know, what, what's your least favorite food? I mean, it's just, and then everybody goes around and answers what's their least favorite food?

Hey, if you were given, given an opportunity to have a million dollars today, or you know, $10 million in 10 years, what would you take? You know, and everybody gets to, you know, so, so you go through that and then, and then it moves into, all right, how was everybody's week and. Matthew, how was it? Tell us a little bit about it.

Yeah. You get a little, you know, high level kind of, you know, chatter about what you did. So it's, it's, it's pretty cool.

[00:23:37] Matthew Dunn: I, uh, highly recommend it. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a great idea. I've got a, I've got a few standing, uh, things on my schedule with, with close colleagues, and what I've really learned to treasure about them is that with there really.

uh, an agenda. We're not trying to get through A, B and c. It, it seems like a casual check in, but it usually ends up being the smartest, [00:24:00] you know, smartest moment of the day. Like, Oh wow. For saying that, that, well, that was really useful, right? With, with no, with no, you know, hardcore reason to do it. Um, and I had the fascinating experience.

You probably had this as well. I was at my first conference in a good couple of years, uh, last June. In fact, I'll pick on your colleague Jenna, I walk into where people are starting to gather. This is in Las Vegas. In an email conference, there's Jenna and I had this stutter step in my head of I'm getting to meet my friend for the first time live.

And that momentary, do I give her a hug? Do I not? I let her, I let her take the lead on. Cause Yeah, yeah. You know, cuz it'd be the right thing to do. But it was, it was bizarre to meet people live that I felt, I feel I know well for the first time. Oh yeah, it was fun, but it was bizarre. I walked around the corner, I'm like, d yay.

We'd never met live before. [00:25:00]

[00:25:00] Jack Wrigley: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:25:01] Matthew Dunn: Really trippy, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And, and I don't, I don't think we'll repeat this particular social experiment. Let's hope not. Uh, yeah, no kidding. But probably we've all, probably, uh, learned a bit. I could feel the, I could feel some of the social, uh, social version of workplace skills kinda atrophying.

Over time , right? Oh, for

[00:25:23] Jack Wrigley: sure. Yeah. I mean, it's different being on a screen than being in a real, real life person. Yeah. You know, I, I experienced something similar, uh, at an email conference just a couple, couple months ago, and, um, What was really cool, at least for me, it was one thing to, to meet people for the first time.

Mm-hmm. . But what was really cool is to see people that I haven't seen in two years that I used to see once or twice a year at conferences and to, to see them physically and kind of give 'em a hug that. Was awesome. Yeah. That was, I mean, I'm getting goosebumps mentioning it, but it was, it was way cool.

[00:25:57] Matthew Dunn: Yeah. Really neat. Yeah. That, that, [00:26:00] uh, that eagerness to re reconnect. I, I, I, I used to avoid conferences more than a few times a year, and now I actually look forward to them for that very reason. Right.

[00:26:11] Jack Wrigley: Yeah. I, I'll give you a funny, stupid little story. At that particular conference, I set up a Zoom call to talk to somebody about, you know, partnerships and stuff like that, right?

We're working on a, a program. Call me Goofy or whatever, but I was in San Francisco. He is in San Francisco, and I was having a Zoom call not knowing that he was in San Francisco, and I had this Zoom call like the day I was leaving. Yeah. And all of a sudden we're sitting there talking. He goes, Wait a minute, you're in San Francisco?

I said, Yeah, where are you? I'm in San Francisco. And I'm like, Oh my God. All this time we could. You know, met for a beer or a coffee or whatever. Isn't that weird? It's like, Yeah. We just assume everybody's right here in this neat little box when in fact, you know, Yeah, if I ever in, You're up in [00:27:00] Bellingham, right?

[00:27:01] Matthew Dunn: Oh, good memory. Yes, I am.

[00:27:02] Jack Wrigley: Yeah. Yeah. So if I ever am in Bellingham, Yeah. You know, it would be weird to, Yeah. Matthew, let's have a Zoom call and then go, Right. What a minute. You're, you're in Bellingham.

[00:27:12] Matthew Dunn: What? Yeah. What We, we, we did, and we'll get off the pandemic stuff in a sec, but we did. And when it was really the height of the thing.

Right. When you, when it felt like you'd shrunk wrapped the house. Uh, we, we, we would do board games or card games with friends on, on, you know, on Zoom. It's like very unsatisfactory.

[00:27:34] Jack Wrigley: Oh my gosh. But good

[00:27:36] Matthew Dunn: effort. Yeah. Yeah. You're like points for trying. What I realized is it was bloody exhausting. . Oh, I'm sure it, that, that take turns and that, Oh, wait, what, what card?

Like, oh goodness. How

[00:27:50] Jack Wrigley: about, how

[00:27:51] Matthew Dunn: about cheaters? Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. , lots of cheating going on with zoom board games. Yeah. Yeah. That, that's true. And [00:28:00] some of, especially some of the really, uh, competitive ones. Um, let's go forward facing a bit since the nominal framework around this is the future of email.

When we were chatting just briefly beforehand, you mentioned email and sms, which is, which I find is a great lens to look at how these channels are evolving. What, uh, what are your, some of your initial thoughts about the, the, the trajectory and direction of, of email and SMS, if you'd like?

[00:28:31] Jack Wrigley: Yeah. Well, I just think that.

I think the biggest challenge with the email industry, well, let's, let's first put the flag in the ground and say email is still king. I don't care what anybody says. It is still the driver. And it, and it's simple stuff like, Hey, you wanna send an SM uh, an sms? Well, guess what? You better have an email address.

I mean, it's so you got right.

[00:28:54] Matthew Dunn: Cause

[00:28:54] Jack Wrigley: the only way you're sending an SMS on an iPhone is if you've logged in to something and the way you log in is with freaking email [00:29:00] address. The, the point is email is king, but I think one of the challenges that we have as an industry is con, is sometimes we, we, we, we want to default back to things we've been saying.

For the last 10 years as a defense mechanism to, you know, do this to any kind of new, new type of technology coming in. I, I, and I'll just give you an anecdotal story. I think a year and a half, two years ago, if you would've legitimately sat down with somebody and said, What do you think of SMS and email ever converging?

There's only a few people in our industry that would've gone, Yeah, that's absolutely going to happen today. It's everywhere. I mean, it's, it's, you know, you, you send on virtually any platform, you now have the ability to send a text as well. Right. Um, and so I just think that it's important for us as an industry to not always.

And, and I'm not gen, I don't wanna generalize because not everybody does this and the as as an industry is, as a whole. I think we do. But there's a lot of really cool, innovative thought coming out of [00:30:00] the industry. But I think it's important to just not always rely on, well, this is how we've been doing it for the last years.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's super, And I'll give you an example of that deliverability. 2, 3, 4 years ago, deliverability was exactly what you said it was. It was this kind of you weird kind of name and you know, I, It's Garley Go. There were a few key people, and again, I won't name names, but really smart people in deliverability that are still there today.

We have basically fast forwarded to where. There's deliverability experts virtually on every street corner. Now. There's multiple platforms that can help you with deliverability. It's no longer just return path, you know, the return path forever owned that, that space for the most part, right? Well, gosh, now there's a whole corner coia of different things, which is really cool.

And so I think that as an industry, we have to continue to evolve. We have to continue to think a little bit outside the box. We have to continue to guard. The kingdom from the nefarious stuff, but [00:31:00] also understand that there are people that are legitimate marketers that need help, that are getting into some trouble.

But, but we can help those folks get out of some trouble and become better stewards of the industry. So I, you know, that, that's the way I look at this. You know, we, we, we have this really awesome platform, really awesome historic perspective, and we need to leverage that to continue to look forward so that people.

You know, it sounds stupid, but people's lives are better. You know, what they need gets, gets delivered faster. Their ability to do things improves with speed. All of those things, I think can emulate out of

[00:31:36] Matthew Dunn: the email industry. Yeah, yeah. Well, well, well put and, and agreed. Um,

the, the, the shape of things that we think of as normal. Is, is I suspect, quite skewed, quite affected by how it happens to work in the us. Um, and I'll give you [00:32:00] an example. Uh, Scott Cohen, email marketer of the year was a, was a guest on this program a couple weeks ago and great guy in, yeah, great guy Boise.

He sharp too, and he knows his space really well, but he was telling me, Oh yeah, in, in the job and the company he's in now that messaging, sms, SMS s messaging is, is under his purview as well. So he's starting to take what he's known, learned over a long career in the email space and open it up to that, and he said, Well,

He said it's really fascinating to learn words to that effect, he said, But uh, just, just the cost factor is a big deal. And he said it cost about 10 times as much to SMS in the UK as it does in the US Right? And it's already expensive here. Right? And you already wanna be smart and selective, both for the cost reasons and for the customer attention and engagement reasons.

But if you add a zero to the end of it, cuz you're in the uk, I'm gonna bet the practices are really d. [00:33:00] Um, so we've gotta be a little careful not to go, well, sms, you know, cost about, no, here it costs about X, you know, there's cost differential X or the market penetration of iPhone is y. It's not necessarily the shape of things elsewhere.

I'm a, I'm a long time student of, of, of media broadly, but particularly digital media. And I watched SMS evolve in Europe and, and the US very differe. You can see Oh, for sure. Yeah. You can see the remnants of it now. Yeah. And as we're starting to bring it in and, and sort of say, Okay, belongs in quasi the same world or under the same purview as as email, as a channel.

I mean, they're always of talking to the customer ultimately. Right. Uh, right. There's, there's, there's a bit of history to learn that can really help you do a better job. .

[00:33:51] Jack Wrigley: Yeah. So I think that, um, you know, it's interesting because there's a, there's a number of buckets that to me kind of falls into. So, so one is [00:34:00] engagement, you know, um, even though SMS or MMS is more costly, uh, the engagement, and I'm sorry, you know, the conversion, oftentimes it's much, much better.

And so you have to weigh that. The other thing is, is to me, it's not about. It's about effectively leveraging SMS as a complimentary piece to email. And, and I would not propose, and I don't, I don't even think, Well, there, there might be some SMS MMS platforms out there. I would say get rid of email, but, but at the end of the day, I think that they can be very complimentary and the cost to send an MMS or an SM SMS to a customer can then be blend.

With the, the email that originally went out to, to something. I'll give you one little anecdotal story. Say I'm, uh, I go into a store and, uh, they're out of what I want. Um, but when they, when it comes in, I'm buying it. And so I'm, I'm set up in the, the normal [00:35:00] channel of email, but then all of a sudden when that product comes in, I.

I get my, my text, my SMS rms that says, Hey, it's ready, buy it, type thing. Right, right, right, right. The, the, the, those actions I think need to, there, there's gotta be a blend overall in terms of the, the amount that it costs to convert that sale. It's gonna be higher than just an email, but it's not gonna be just a standalone Yeah.

Just to standalone. Yeah. Text message either. And so there's things that we could probably do as an industry to. You know, push out kind of the blended cost, the blended opportunity, and, and how to best use those in a complimentary fashion so that you're not just sending out a million email and then you're sending out a million texts.

That's, that's not really, you know, the, the process that should be

[00:35:47] Matthew Dunn: adopted. Well, and, and, and hopefully we'll start, uh, understanding, formulating and sharing. What, what's, what's effective, and I mean that [00:36:00] in the fundamental better for everyone. Effective because right now I'm sure there are plenty of experiments going on, but I'm guessing there are companies finding, Ah, you know what?

Sending everything in text is dumb. Customers don't like it. They opt out. Okay. What, you know, what is the handoff point? I, I, I, I had a chance to, I had a chance to see my doctor. It'd been years recently, and I was actually kind of delighted when I got a text the night before saying, you know, Hey dummy, you've got an appointment with Dr.

So and so, like, cuz last time I'd interacted with him, nothing like that. And it was a, it was a good use, right? That high interrupt, high engagement. Channel and, and emails saying the same thing. I might not have seen on Sunday night. I might not have seen until Monday morning. Right, Right. Um, but if everything from them came via text, I'd be, I'd soon be on the shut up button.

[00:36:56] Jack Wrigley: Yeah, so, so there's a couple things. It's so funny, but we're, I think we're [00:37:00] of similar age or something because we're, we're now getting notified by doctors. . Yeah. Which is, which is hilarious. But I literally got a text from a doctor that I hadn't seen in three years, and, and it's, and it's, that's the proper time, right?

Mm-hmm. , um, it's not like I should have been seeing sooner, or, but I got a, and it was in the back of my mind. It's like, It's probably getting close to that time, right? Yeah. I got, I got a text and I was like, Oh, I, you know, I remembered it. But that was a pretty cool use of, you know, getting a text because to your point, sending an email can get buried.

It can, you know, there's, there's other things that can happen. Yeah. But I think overall, My, my high level understand or, uh, you know, feeling on, on SMS and MMS is that it's still kind of a toy. It's still sort of a novelty and I think it will mature to better un you know, so that people don't get tired of getting texts because you've already heard of, I get, just like you said, if I get a lot of texts, it's gonna, you know, I'm gonna.

[00:38:00] Either delete it or start marking it as, you know, I don't wanna, you know, blocking it. Yeah. Um, so there will be that inflection, and I think it's starting and you're probably gonna see a ton of it this holiday season. Um, and people will kinda lick their wounds and go, Oh my God, I had a lot of people like, you know, opt out of this process.

And so there's going to be this sort of natural kind of understanding of how they work together and how best to approach a, a customer. Because again, here's where it's similar. If you send something. Golden. Just like you got your notification from your doctor. Golden. Yeah. Yeah. If you're just palleting somebody with the next sale.

You know, unless that person that's super relevant to the person, which probably isn't, but maybe, um, that's, you know, that's where the similarities are, are definitely the same, you know, intent based relative messaging, whether it's sending an email or an SMS or nms,

[00:38:54] Matthew Dunn: It's key. Yeah. What I, I find, at least just, just for me, the, [00:39:00] Yeah.

The dividing line of my time. Is a factor in the meaning of the message the doctor appointment tomorrow. My time was a factor in the meaning of the message. I subscribed to text marketing from a couple of brands, just, just as a learning experience in this space. Yeah. Um, one them's a golf retailer. One of them's a clothing company who I actually kinda like both of them.

Steady cadence. It's always a fricking. And it's always kind of a blast message. Like it's clearly, this is sales on right now and all I've really gleaned from the experience of a few months with those guys is to spend less If I spend it all, why? Cause if I'm looking for X right? T-shirts, new cutter, right?

I'll just wait and sooner or later it'll pop up in the text from those guys that the thing I was looking for is on sale. And then I'll. to get it right. [00:40:00] Is that what they actually want from me? I don't know. And, and it, and it's pain to have the constant, you know, every couple of days it pops up. It also, I will unsubscribe at some point just for the, just to preserve my own a attention.

Oh, for

[00:40:16] Jack Wrigley: sure. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and the same can be held for, you know, Getting email that, you know, are just bombarding. I mean, it's, it's the, that, that part of the process is absolutely identical regardless of how you're trying to communicate with a customer is keep it intent based. Keep it relevant to what their interests are.

Um, keep it at a cadence that you've, you know, they're, they, they want, um, all of those things. Are in play. Yeah. Um, I just think that once there, there's going to be people and we'll probably see it sooner rather than later. There's going to be case studies done around how a company has effectively married the two.

Yeah. To really drive revenue because I think, so there is something really. [00:41:00] Inherently cool about getting something here. Mm-hmm. versus waiting for an email to come in there. There, there's something really cool there. And, and the companies that can master that are gonna be, you know, their, their revenue's gonna go up for

[00:41:11] Matthew Dunn: sure.

I'm sure my gray hair here, but I do remember when, Well the killer, one of the killer apps on mobile, early mobile was email for. Blackberry. I mean, Blackberry was an email device that happened like phone calls and I, and people tended to have alerts for email the way we have alerts for text now, as if every message that I like a popup for every message that comes in , I would not get anything done at all now and, and text is sort of sitting there at that level right now.

Every text I had to mute. Early in our conversation because a friend of mine was sending me pictures Yeah. About golf or something. I'm like, Oh god. You know, Quick find the mute button. No. Funny. Yeah. [00:42:00] Well, I speculated on, I speculated on this, and I'm gonna stand by the speculation, would, would Apple potentially be able to make the play for a promotions tab in messages?

I would argue. They might do that. Oh, oh, absolutely. You

[00:42:18] Jack Wrigley: can totally see

[00:42:19] Matthew Dunn: that coming. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And that

[00:42:21] Jack Wrigley: would, I mean, you're, you're starting, I don't know if you've updated the latest iOS, but I've noticed in messaging that when you get a text message now from, you know, somebody that is sending it to you, that's promotion, not promotional, but it's not from like you sending it to me, it's like a store sending it to me.

You can, when you go to delete it, you're given the option to. Every time. Have you noticed that when you delete it, it says delete or delete and report and, and so they're already trying to pick up data? Yeah. In my opinion, they're already trying to understand how good, how is, how is messaging being leveraged?

How annoying is it? How often does somebody go, Nope, [00:43:00] keep, Nope, keep, yes, delete and report, delete, and. It's, it's already that data. There's probably server farms at Apple that are taking all that in, and Android might already provide that. I don't know, I don't, I don't use an Android, but, um, I thought that was a really

[00:43:14] Matthew Dunn: interesting update.

you touched on, you touched on the, uh, the tip of a very big schism in there. Actually, I wrote about this on Ulous blog. . Seriously. You did? Yes. Last month. Did, uh, last month. Oh my God, I, Yeah, no. An article about, about the, Without standing it, about the big, um, the big division in messaging at, at at least currently, uh, right.

Google pushing rcs. Uh, Apple Sing. Yeah, we don't think so. And, and my, my, I'll stand by the prediction. Apple has no good reason to to, to join that particularly fractured in and out of Sync Band. So we'll continue to have Deon Cold War oh, different platforms for quite a, quite a stretch, [00:44:00] which, which will keep email in a different functional role that, Let me put it, let me rephrase that.

Messaging worked as seamlessly and coherently as in theory it could it, right? We might see a, a different handoff point between email and messaging because of the affordances of, because of the different affordances of both channels while messaging is. Balkanized and fragmented and the lowest common denominators, text only sms, then, then we'll have a different handoff point, uh, closer to the urgent, important time related personal moment for sure, and keep more of the rich stuff, I think, and the repetitive stuff I think in.

Uh, it's, it's

[00:44:48] Jack Wrigley: possible. I, I think one of the wild cards to all of that is, um, you know, we, we tend to discuss SMS and MMS as the same product. Yeah. Mm-hmm. , um, and MMS [00:45:00] has always been tough to, to deal with just based on, um, you know, the technology to push an MMS message. And that has all changed. And I'm telling you, if you've seen a rich MMS message pushed to.

It is awesome. It is not just a text message with a link to go somewhere to, you know, it is fully active, interactive, You can buy from it. It's awesome. And I think that there's still a. Um, you know, there's still room even within kind of the SMS MMS world for that growth to really, to really happen.

[00:45:38] Matthew Dunn: No, I agreed.

Agreed. Yeah, it's, it's pretty cool. Fingers crossed. Will do more of that. Um, MMS is US Canada, mms, strictly mms, US Canada. Yeah. Only. So that's a, that's a, that's a bit of a pickle. Um, I don't also, I don't think any of the O T T [00:46:00] messengers, the. WhatsApp, we chat mainly channel. I, I don't think any of those, at least in the US market, are going to successfully supplant the, the native messaging app, the, uh, iOS messenger, the um, right, Android messenger.

Like those are gonna be the go-to because that's where you communicate with your friends. Well, it's,

[00:46:23] Jack Wrigley: it what in my mind that comes down to trust. You know, I, I trust, Yeah. Wrongly or rightly, I trust my, my messaging app that's native to my iOS device. Mm-hmm. more so than going out and creating a WeChat account so that I can, you know, chat with some sort of customer service.

And beyond that, what I, what I find really, and then you've probably had this happen, um, but I absolutely love dealing with customer service via text because, you know, for example, Um, you know, when you, I use T-Mobile. All right. Um, when you, if you engage with [00:47:00] T-Mobile, they'll move your conversation, obviously into kind of your, your messaging app.

And it's just the iOS, it's the messaging app, but it says T-Mobile. And when you're done, you can delete. It'll say, Do you wanna leave this conversation? Boom, it's gone. I love that. Nice. I much prefer that than going, you know, over to, you know, WeChat or whatever that might be, to kind of have that conversation.

Nice. Um, I, but all of that to me just comes down to trust. It's like, who do you trust with your, with your, you know, conversation. Especially, you know, some of those conversations, you know, even though it might be about your cell plan or whatever, it's. You know, it's kind of private stuff you're chitchatting about.

Right. You

[00:47:40] Matthew Dunn: also, you also made a really critical observation there and I'll, I'm gonna credit T-Mobile just on, on how you said it, that treating, treating that channel as a conversational rather than a broadcast mechanism. Oh, totally, totally, totally. That's a big differe. [00:48:00]

[00:48:00] Jack Wrigley: It's, it's huge. And it's really cool when, when you're involved in it.

Oh yeah. At least from a customer perspective. Yeah. Cause you can blast them, you know, you can go, This is just terrible. And then they, they reply, they reply. It's like, you've sent an email and then you're waiting for a turn within 24 hours or whatever. It's, it's a, it's a pretty cool thing. And, um, most importantly, I just like the immediacy of it.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I like the, Hey, you know what? I'm having this issue, or, you know, I don't understand this. Or being able to just have that immediate. Conversation within the, the, the messaging app is pretty cool. Well,

[00:48:32] Matthew Dunn: and, and this, I'm pulling, I'm pulling, uh, pulling off a really old data set here, but Yeah, early days of early days of support, I, I, I started in tech in on phone support when that was the only kind of support.

But early days when. . I know. I'm dating myself. So cool. Um, when, when support via, uh, chat type mechanism started to become [00:49:00] feasible, companies quickly discovered that one rep could juggle multiple, I think the number was two half. Yeah. Like it's actually a lot more cost efficient without the, without the customer experience going down because Right.

Conversations, there's a lot of dead air. You've gotta stay engaged in the conversation. If a guy on the other end of the phone or video chat is ignoring it, it, you'll know it. Um, whereas if they're multitasking or isro, you know, IROs working on you in a chat, you don't really know it and you're okay

[00:49:34] Jack Wrigley: with it.

Yeah. For the most part, I, I will be, I will say I'm not that person that if I, if I'm in that chat mode and I ask a question or I provide them information, and then it goes dead for longer than maybe a minute or so, Yes. Longer than a minute or so, I, I will absolutely go. You still there?

[00:49:50] Matthew Dunn: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hello? Yeah. But your tolerance is there. Your tolerance is different. If, if I, I mean, I guess that's why they put you on hold, on a, on a [00:50:00] voice. Uh, but, but yeah, like, well, kind of like this, The other thing that I remember from, from the early support experiments was that the, the ability to pull in someone else or tap someone else's expertise to solve the customer problem was, was better.

Because there was just a little more time slip in the gears of a for conversation. Yeah, Yeah. It's fascinating.

[00:50:24] Jack Wrigley: Well, and all of that now can just be handed off. I mean, that's something else that, uh, again, I, I'm just using T-Mobile as an experience, but, um, yeah, if, if they need to bring somebody else into the conversation, because oftentimes your first to reach out is, Straight up customer service, right?

Sure. Customer service. Service. If you have a technical question or something like that, arguably they gotta bring somebody in. But that handoff, even within that messaging process, can be super slick and cool. It's like, Hey, you know, Jack, thanks so much for chatting with me. Here's Amanda. She'll take it from here.

Nice. And all of a sudden, Amanda pops in and it's like, Hey, Mr. Wrigley, what can I help you with? I mean, it's freaking.

[00:50:58] Matthew Dunn: Wow, really cool. Wow. Okay, so [00:51:00] we beat up, we beat up texting pretty thoroughly. What about the future of email ?

[00:51:05] Jack Wrigley: Oh, I think the, you know, at the end of the day, the future of email is really, really strong.

Yeah. I mean, it's not going anywhere. It's only going to build and, um, it's, you know, it's incumbent upon all of us to, to, to continue to, you know, nurture all the best aspects of email. I think it's incredibly incumbent upon us also to. Push the bounds and, and understand how it can even be more effective and things of that nature.

Um, and to that. Degree. You know what, what gets me super excited at times is again, a particular Slack channel that I think you're probably in it as well, but, but I'm in it, It's great. I love seeing the younger people in that. I love hearing their perspective. It is so important, you know, that that whole concept in life of, you know, elders will, will give you some perspective and this is how it was done and these are, these are some of the ways that we might have navigated through a trying time, blah, blah, [00:52:00] blah.

All. But we need to sit back and we need to look at the young people too and go, Holy crap. You know, they're right. They, they, you know, how they're interpreting email and interacting with email and how it works within their early lives is where we need to be looking in terms of where's this thing going?

Yeah. And um, we, in my opinion, as an industry, we gotta do better at that because typically, You'll probably sense it if, if somebody young is in and they ask a question, sometimes they get piled on. Not intentionally, but it's like, Oh my gosh, they just asked a basic question. Quit, you know, using this as a time to pull out the email Bible and say, No, no, no.

Right. I think we have to do a better job of kind of nurturing that, that youthful side of our industry, listening to how, you know, they envision email, what's working for them, what isn't, because I think you can take a lot from that along with the history and build a tremendously positive future

[00:52:55] Matthew Dunn: for the industry.

You know, I'm gonna blame this on you, actually, I'm gonna credit it to you. Right. [00:53:00] But I, but I think I just decided that year three of the future of email, I, I, I'm gonna have guests under a certain age. Will that

[00:53:11] Jack Wrigley: be interesting? Seriously, dude, Way interesting. I mean, listen. Hmm. I'm pretty interesting.

Absolutely. I mean, come on. No. Way into that's, here's, here's, here's where, where that just resonates big, big time for me. You referenced Jenna a couple of times. Yeah, yeah. Jenna is, in my opinion, and she knows this, so this is not news, new news. People in white people know this. I think she is part of the future of email.

I think her love of the industry and what she's doing around content and, and truly trying to kinda. Not just build a vehicle that's been driven in for 35 years, but build new opportunities going forward. She's, she's already trying to do that for 2023. Right. In terms of her blog process. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.

that kind of thought, that generation, [00:54:00] dude, light it up. I think it would be fascinating. Yeah. Massively awesome. Because there's so many smart people in the early twenties around this industry. I had, uh, you

[00:54:11] Matthew Dunn: teach us a lot. I had, uh, janitor Spra on her conversation a few weeks back. She's awesome. She blew me away.

Like, isn't she amazing? Yeah. Like, I hate saying I've gotta, you know, I've gotta kid your age, . Wow. You know, like, and her perspective is her perspective, and it's like, Yeah, I'm, I'm really, I I love what you're saying about younger because, um, For the field to evolve, for it to stay viable, for it to, to sync with the times, right?

Yeah. It's, it's, it's not gonna be you and I, um, making those calls. No, because our sensibilities No. Are, are different. Are in, you know, informed by experiences. Uh, we are not digital native. No,

[00:54:59] Jack Wrigley: we, we, [00:55:00] we cut our, you know, we learned, We learned as, as we went, right? It was presented to us. I mean, I remember getting online under the worldwide web for the first time, and it was through, Yeah, Apple had some sort of like Apple world or something.

Do you remember that? I don't know if you remember that, but it was like 1995 and it was like you logged in. It was, it was sort of this virtual world where there was a grocery store over here that you could walk over and Oh my gosh. It was like, Wow. No, you're, You're exactly right. Hey, I would also challenge you to not only get the young marketing brain, the young marketing person, the young marketing kind of thought around email, but.

Talk to the young developers. Yeah. Yeah. I'm telling that I'd like to do, talk to the, to talk to the younger folks that are kind of understanding deliverability and, and seeing deliverability and maybe have been in deliverability for a short amount of time and, and they're getting kind of this.

Historical perspective of deliverability, but a lot of those folks will have these kind of cool ideas about, well, here's how we mitigate more of [00:56:00] that risk, and here's what I'm thinking. I think that would be a really, really great thing to, uh, kind of

[00:56:04] Matthew Dunn: uncover geek out. I love that idea. Oh man, this is, Yeah, man, this is awesome.

This is gonna be like the, the Jack Wrigley special series. Um, yeah, I think this is gonna be fun. Hey, when, when

[00:56:16] Jack Wrigley: you make. I just want, I just wanna be ,

[00:56:20] Matthew Dunn: I'm just kidding you. I know, I, I will. Well, D is bit as I knew it would be. It's been pretty darn fascinating. We've been all over the place. I really appreciate the conversation.

[00:56:31] Jack Wrigley: Good, doctor, I appreciate it as well. Thanks for having me. And uh, it's always fun chatting.

Absolutely.

[00:56:36] Matthew Dunn: So if you're listening and you're wondering where you can learn more about abula abula.com and you can find Jack on LinkedIn, I. .

[00:56:45] Jack Wrigley: Absolutely. Yep. And, uh, we're, we're happy. We're more than happy to, you know, talk to you about what we do, see if it helps you.

If it doesn't, no harm, no foul. I suspect it would, but if it doesn't, that's fine. Just, uh, reach out. Cool. Appreciate that. Thank you, Jack. All right, Matthew, take care.