A Conversation With Ben Lund of Rise Marketing

Working at a large, growing and (preferably) successful company is "an MBA of its own", notes former Googler Ben Lund.

Ben has taken that gMBA and hit the street, launching his own marketing agency, Rise Marketing Group. He's quite thoughtful about the jobs that an agency does for clients. Rise Marketing doesn't just focus on SEO — they help clients with social and email marketing as well.

In this conversation, Ben and host Matthew Dunn discuss the current inflections in digital — more focus on privacy, battles for ID control, the death of cookies and even the green-vs-blue-bubble world of SMS. A great conversation about digital marketing with someone who really knows the space!

TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:09] Matthew Dunn: Good morning. This is Dr. Matthew Dunn, host of the Future of email. My guest this morning, Ben Lund, uh, head of Rise Marketing and, uh, former corporate guy. We're gonna talk about that a bit. .

[00:00:23] Ben Lund: Yeah, Matthew, thanks for having me on today. I'm really pumped to be here. You're Massachusetts.

Massachusetts

[00:00:29] Matthew Dunn: right outside of Boston. Okay. Okay, so you got, you got a couple cup of coffee, uh, head start on, on us here on the West Coast,

[00:00:36] Ben Lund: but uh, I know this is early for you, especially after a big weekend.

[00:00:40] Matthew Dunn: It's, that's right. Actually, what's funny about the podcast thing, um, I'll frequently have guests from like eu, sometimes Australia, and they love the 7:00 AM slot, and I'm perfectly game for it, and I put it on the calendar, but there are times I go, uh, oh man, I'm not gonna be at my best.

I got, [00:01:00] I need to get up early and have an extra cup of Joe or something like that. Hey Ben. Um, give people a, give people a brief snapshot of your company for starters of what, uh, what rise. Yeah, sounds

[00:01:12] Ben Lund: good. Um, so Rise Marketing Group, it's a performance advertising. That's what I label us as. And so what that means, it's really focused.

We're not a brand in agency. We're not a creative first agency. It's really dollar in dollar out to some type of business output that's a transaction or that's a lead. And then how do we do that? That's, uh, on a variety of different strategies, um, in order of our most popular services. So, Paid ads, so Google Ads, social LinkedIn for b2b.

Uh, we do SEO work, search engine optimization, and then other verticals that we've been opening up include email as well as social media. But paid ads and SEO right now are the number two services, and it's, [00:02:00] that's what we do for our clients to drive leads and sales is pretty much what it comes down to.

[00:02:04] Matthew Dunn: Now, you had spent some time, um, among other things, at, at, uh, at a, at, at a Merkel division. So you've got some background in this, uh, in this agency space.

[00:02:15] Ben Lund: Yeah, that's right. I was, um, yeah. When was this? This was, uh, what, 2014 to 28? Nope, this is four years prior. 2011 to 2014. And, uh, yeah, I was at ekg, uh, rim Kaufman Group.

Yeah. Which was a private, uh, independent agency that on e-commerce. And they did all Google ads, Microsoft ads, and it was fun being part of that team and that agency. And then they were eventually acquired by Merkel. Which is the behemoth in of itself. Um, and but then since I left, uh, Google, but yeah, no, I had some fun working at Agency Life.

I was on their business development team, so. You know, fly out to meet great clients like Crate and Barrel and Dick [00:03:00] Sporting Goods and kind of stand up and do your pitch and how can you grow their program and um, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's when people are flying all over

[00:03:06] Matthew Dunn: the place. Yeah. Sounds like you like the stand up on your feet and improvised part of it too to me.

Yeah. I

[00:03:12] Ben Lund: mean, it was good experience. It was great experience. Um, just, you know, understanding what, and I mean, I use that practice to this day and I'm sure you do too as well. It's, nothing's really scripted. Listening to what the client is looking to get out of a potential relationship and see if, if there is a mutual fit.

Yeah. Um,

[00:03:33] Matthew Dunn: so how do, how do you, I'm gonna jump around a bit. So yeah, you've got, you've got this wonderful diversity of background and we'll touch on pieces of it, but as, as the guy heading an agency now, um, one. Why , why'd you, why'd you go out and hang out the shingle and, and, and start doing this? And then two, how

[00:03:54] Ben Lund: do you juggle it?

Yeah, you know, I always, I've always wanted to start [00:04:00] my own business and I never knew what that would be. And, uh, so then through, I just kinda, you know, graduated UMass Amherst in marketing in 2004. I know I'm dating myself, but, uh, And I just kind of proceeded up working at big companies, marketing, advertising, boom, boom, boom.

But always in the back of my mind I'm like, oh, it'd be so cool and so much fun to like actually have your own business. And you called the shots. But I never knew what that was. And then as I built up, you know, I would say a decent, pretty decent skill set of doing this for now, 15 plus years or 17, um, and then hit me, it's like, well, you could just sell all the services that you do for other clients and start your own shop.

And I don't know, just something was always tugging at me to go into entrepreneurship and I wanted to scratch the itch. And what helped me out is like, yes, you do. Yes, there's a risk leaving a big company. In this case it was Google. Mm-hmm. . But you know, I backed it up as like, well, I'm not gonna [00:05:00] lose the knowledge I've gained.

If it doesn't work out. You can always go back. You can always go back, you know, tomorrow if I'm like, ah, I'm bored. This isn't gonna be the case. But I'm like, ah, I wanna go back. Work for a big company and bigger challenges, maybe, maybe not, and do it. You can always do that. Uh, but I really wanted to give this an honest go.

Yeah. And I have it be till I'm 70 years old and be like, oh, I really wish I would've tried that. Um, so Yeah.

[00:05:27] Matthew Dunn: Yeah. To you too. Yeah. I've done, I, I, I did the, uh, I had the opportunity to be at a big company early on. I actually, I'll tell you know, young colleagues if you get a chance to do that. Mm-hmm. , you will learn stuff inside the big.

That will help you no matter where else you land, because when you're dealing with someone else at a big org, you've got at least some perspective on the both the resources and the real constraints that they're working within. When you're one of 10,000, [00:06:00] fill in the blanks. Your latitude for action is very different.

Yeah. And when you're the only guy in the seat at the, you know, at the head of Rise marketing group, right?

[00:06:10] Ben Lund: That's true. Yeah. And, and, um, working at a big organization can be an MBA by itself of just you learn so much and they train you and process and then that can help in all aspects of.

[00:06:26] Matthew Dunn: Yeah. Yeah. It, and, and in the same time, if someone, you know, there's, it's someone else's idea of structure and strategy and, and business priority and even culture and things like that.

So, uh, checks and balances. Neither, neither them bad experiences, I don't think. Um, what was the biggest surprise in the four years, four plus years of running your own shop?

[00:06:49] Ben Lund: Ooh, that's a really good question. Um, biggest surprise. I don't think there's one big surprise. I think, uh, [00:07:00] one thing I would say is it wasn't necessarily a surprise.

It was just like, okay, I know this is eventually gonna come. So I start, started Horizon. I'm like, okay, we're doing well. Got some clients hired. First employee, continue to grow, second play, third play. But in the back of my mind, I'm like, well, times are good, but times will not always be good and there will be recessions and.

So that wasn't a surprise and. Of course Covid hit. So that Q2 of, was it three years ago when the whole economy like shut? I'm like, okay, well this is it. This is, uh, the first hurdle. Um, but thankfully, you know, we, I mean unfortunately we lost clients cuz everyone just shut down what they're doing during that quarter.

But then that accelerated the need for digital after. That, uh, economic shutdown. Yeah. And then, you know, now we're in another similar or a relatable space. Where are we in a recession? Are we not? Depending on whose headline you wanna read. And then, so organizations are thinking about that, especially maybe [00:08:00] startup clients that are, um, are looking for funding.

So that was the biggest thing of, it wasn't a surprise, but it was like, okay, a recession or economic downturn will happen at some point. Let the surprises, how are you gonna react and how can you keep things pumping and adapt appropriately?

[00:08:18] Matthew Dunn: Right, right. Yeah. And, and one of the virtues of small is you, you can change change course fast, very fast.

Yeah. Really, really fast. Which is,

[00:08:29] Ben Lund: which is, which is so much fun. I mean, I, I joke around with members of the team sometimes we'll just crank out a whole like, strategy Yeah. In like 45 minutes and. And you don't have to respond to anyone else, but like, okay, well let's just do it. Whereas before, if you worked for Google or a Merkel or whatever that might be, oh my gosh, it is like lifting up a boulder up a mountain just to get someone to look at it.

Let alone approve it and then let alone run it. It's just, yeah, [00:09:00] it's a little demotivated, really. .

[00:09:03] Matthew Dunn: Well, I, you know, I'm, I'm of a couple minds about that. There's, uh, I, I, I've had Amazon in, in my days running an agency. We actually had Amazon as a client at one point, so I got to work with Amazon and I heard a bit about their practice of.

Really intentional and thoughtful. You've gotta pitch this with a written memo and everybody at the meeting is gonna read it and then they're gonna discuss it. It's like really pushing the think this through, uh, dimension of strategy and, and, um, it's easy at a small company. To, to do something relatively fast and, and, and sometimes impulsively not necessarily thought through, but it doesn't necessarily kill you either.

If a week down the line you go, oh, crikey, we forgot about, you know, blah, blah, blah, flying monkeys, and we should, should change that. Like, okay, we'll [00:10:00] change it. We'll, we'll adapt. So that, the balance between, I guess where I'm going is the balance between. You know, more eyes on the problem before you set off on the actual journey.

There's, there's some gain to that, but there's also a scale. I think we're both saying a scale at a big company where you go, oh my God. It's like, it takes so bloody long just to get to Yes, let's

[00:10:21] Ben Lund: go. I know, and probably the red approach is somewhere in the middle. Um, can't be too fast and a little too reckless.

Um, yeah, we're not thinking that through, but you. I would say, uh, what's that, uh, saying? It's, um, don't sacrifice good for being perfect or I don't know, something like that where it's, yeah. Perfect.

[00:10:41] Matthew Dunn: Is the enemy of the good or the good? Yeah. The perfect is the enemy of the good is one way I've heard that, or something

[00:10:45] Ben Lund: like that.

I'd always, I'd always prefer a, b, B plus product for launch and be fast and make changes to get to that a versus Yeah. Over-engineer everything. Yeah. And. Yeah,

[00:10:59] Matthew Dunn: well, we've got a [00:11:00] ringside seat. Uh, you know, as, as we're sitting here late in November, we've got a ringside seat to what, what's looking like one of the biggest.

Impulse driven strategy changes I've ever seen, which is, uh, Twitter two weeks or so into, uh, Aon Musk taking over. And I, you know, I'm just looking from the cheap seats going, are you outta your freaking mind? ? I don't care for your billionaire. You don't know that you, you fired the right people. You can't do it that

[00:11:28] Ben Lund: fast.

That is true. That is so interesting. So yeah, he's taking the, the startup mentality to a very large organization. I, I mean, I don't know if this has been done before. Um, yeah, I don't know. And who knows where it's gonna happen. Um, but from an outsider looking in, um, I don't really tweet that much, but I usually look at it just for like a daily newsfeed of the people that I follow.

and it's interesting. I mean, it's entertaining really.

[00:11:59] Matthew Dunn: Well, I mean, [00:12:00] you, you've worked at, you've worked large, large tech companies. You mentioned Google, and I think you spent some time at Yahoo as well, right? That's correct, yeah. Um, you don't know what everybody does at a big company, like just figuring out who, who turns that knob and, and who runs that dial.

Takes time. And what what's got me just going ove with, uh, with the, with the quick firing is look, the smart people don't necessarily stick around and put up with your baloney. The smart people go, yeah, I can do something else. Goodbye. Yeah,

[00:12:31] Ben Lund: that's true . Um, that's true. And also, Not always the case, but certainly can be.

The smart people may not be the ones that are really speaking up to like advocate for themselves in their role or their project. Yeah, yeah. Or they're like, we're doing great work, but. We're quiet about it and then so they just let him off because he hasn't heard. Yeah. But man, I don't know. It'll be very interesting to see,

[00:12:57] Matthew Dunn: to see how this turns out.

Well, [00:13:00] I mean, to me, this is one of the things I was, I was really interested to talk with you about, because you've got both perspectives. It seems to me that we're in a quite a large sea change moment for. The, the big digital players that have dominated the space for nearly a decade, um, arguably Twitter's in all sorts of tur.

Facebook is, is, is looking shaky to, to put it politely, you got the rise of, of TikTok. We don't know if it'll be legal in a year, at least in this country, but you've got the rise of TikTok. Google's steaming along looking relatively stable to me. You're like, no one's throwing no, no one's throwing really big rocks.

Google's direction. Amazon is sneaking up on everybody. Apple is sneaking up on everybody cuz they control your pockets. Like this is, this is a little different ballgame. It was kind of quasi stable and you could say things like Fang [00:14:00] for almost 10 years and now . Wow. Oh

[00:14:03] Ben Lund: yeah, very. Yeah, a hundred percent.

Um, yeah, for the longest time it was like the two behemoths. Yeah. Um, Google and Facebook now meta and, um, You know, me's been having some tough up go and even from an advertiser perspective. Yeah. And I don't wanna like poo poo their like platform or anything, but you know, from a performance perspective, which we're a performance agency, we just don't see the same return out of it.

Um, interesting. And so we are not allocating as much funds to, and I know a lot of advertisers have pulled out, um, but Google is steady dy and they continue to in innovate and do things. In a very well thought out way. Uh, so the opposite of what's happening at Twitter, like very thought

[00:14:50] Matthew Dunn: out, great products

[00:14:52] Ben Lund: and big fan.

And then, um, you're right, apple, they're, they're rising up and I wouldn't be surprised if they [00:15:00] eventually have their own search engine that they monetize and just build out their advertising. So, yeah, I mean, it's one of the many things that, marketing is a lot of fun. I just, it's never, nothing stays the same.

Yeah. Yahoo. When Yahoo is the number one search engine. Right,

[00:15:19] Matthew Dunn: right. Wow. Yahoo is the

[00:15:21] Ben Lund: Google. Yeah. And everyone went to their homepage portal. Yeah. To, you know, what's my, what's the weather? What's the top sports? My fantasy. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so you just have to adapt. You have to adapt. You can't be stubborn.

Yeah.

[00:15:36] Matthew Dunn: What, uh, what role has, since I mentioned, what role has TikTok played in, in the services for your

[00:15:42] Ben Lund: clients? Yeah, so we've tested it, um, in terms of for the clients that we've tested it on and we've tested on some e-commerce so far, and I believe that's about it. It's good brand visibility. We haven't seen like this nice like ROI [00:16:00] that we see with some other platforms.

They have the reach, they have the engagement. Yeah. Their advertising pro platform will evolve over time to meet the needs of advertisers. So, and it, or maybe it's just not the space for us and it's maybe more of like a branding play. Um, could be, and I think they're probably still figuring it out and the general advertising community of how does TikTok work, but, They have the reach and they have the engagement.

And when you have those two things, there is something valuable there and it's just figuring out like the right fit. Um, So

[00:16:36] Matthew Dunn: I, I, I, I gotta, I gotta pull the age card. I, I, I sort of looked at TikTok and I said, I'm not even gonna start . Like I have too many other interests. I'm not even gonna start, cuz it just seems like it, it, it seems like a black hole for, for time and attention that I can opt not to go down.

[00:16:56] Ben Lund: Yes. No, I hear you. And I'm the exact same way. I [00:17:00] do not have a TikTok account. And he might be like, but then I thought you guys have tested it. Someone on our team Yeah. Younger than I, that, you know, they're passionate about this. Like, you run this, um, and great, but it's not, um,

[00:17:15] Matthew Dunn: yeah. Unfortunate. Yeah. Yeah.

It, and it's, it's very difficult to keep up with all of them. Um, you kind of touched on it, gla, you know, glancing land. Of course I figured we'd go there, but I, I spent some time watching, uh, watching. A, a, a video on your site that you did talking about email and, you know, five strategic pillars that you guys have for clients.

When, when we were riffing through the social and digital channels a minute ago, sort of, you know, how quickly it's changing. I mental asterisk, like, and, and emails still there. Keeps plugging along. Yeah. And, uh, undervalued argu. I would say so, yeah. So talk to me about email and what you, what you do with your clients and [00:18:00] where they are when they come in the door and all of that.

[00:18:02] Ben Lund: Yeah. So email is funny where it's, um, years ago and my, I myself was in that camp like, ah, email. Do people check email anymore? Does it still work? But the answer is yes, it still does. And the beauty of email that so many people forget and overlook. Is that it's free. It's, it's, it's a free platform. You're not paying per click on Google or me or anything like that.

And it's just building up a relationship with your audience, whether it be prospects or, or all the way to, on the other side of the spectrum to your loyalists. And every time you send out that email, it's going to be top of mind in there. Even if they don't click in the email, they just read the subject line like, oh, yep.

Yeah, let think about that. Yeah, but it still works. And now you can set up some great automations and really just have this like supplement the program by. I'm a firm believer that [00:19:00] every business out there should have some email marketing program, whether it's as rudimentary as. A monthly newsletter or biweekly just to say it there, or something much more sophisticated where you have all these flows and automations based off of where they were and what they bought in the past.

But, and again, like it goes back, it's, it's free marketing. Yes, you have to put some effort into it, but you have this email database and you do it nice and tastefully, not spammy. It's gonna help out your business. Yeah.

[00:19:34] Matthew Dunn: I, I, I live in, uh, the Pacific Northwest, uh, world's best town, uh, Bellingham, Washington.

And I, uh, saw an article in the local paper about a guy who runs a hot sauce company here, fun's Hot Sauce. Oh. And he ended up winning like world's best hot sauce, and he didn't, he wasn't even expecting it. And I'm walking through our farmer's market the [00:20:00] next Saturday, and I see the. Fun. And I walked, I'm like, wait a minute, you're in a paper?

And he said, yeah, it was like incredible. And it was the guy, right, who runs this small business. So I'm chatting with him, you know, briefly just to find out what the impact is. Like he said, oh my God, our website just went boom. Cuz apparently the hot sauce nuts of the world. Yeah. Just on him, when he won the prize, he said, we, we, we had to shut down our store cuz we couldn't take any more orders.

And I said, I, and so let me guess. You're gonna jump over to shop, you know, off whatever and jump over to shop if I said, yeah, we're looking at that. And I said, do you have email marketing program in place? And he is like, you mean send stuff, outlook? And I went, oh, ouch. Right. Ouch. And I, I, I wanted to put a time vortex in place and say, can we just chat for half an hour?

Yeah. Cause you've got this moment in the sun. Where you could probably add the top thousand hot sauce nuts in the world [00:21:00] to your list and stay in touch and you'll be gold plated for years to come. If you really like making terrific hot sauce. And if you let that opportunity go, they're

[00:21:12] Ben Lund: not gonna be back.

That's true. They're gonna visit and then they're gonna be gone. And then they're gonna be gone. They might buy some, but they will forget about it. At some. You'll forget about

[00:21:21] Matthew Dunn: it. Yeah. And, and, and you'll end up, he'll end up paying to, to engage them again somewhere down the line. That's, that's what maybe twinge a little bit's like that, that, you know, that brief moment of engagement he had that where he could say, look, um, like let's talk directly to one another.

Um, we both have the channel to it. and I, and it's not something, uh, you know, a small business is necessarily ready for. And I, and I get that. Yeah. And maybe the email space has done a pretty poor job of saying, you know, blocking and tackling basics, you really should be ready for this. Yeah, you shouldn't stand up a website that [00:22:00] doesn't have an opt-in form.

You shouldn't. But, um, yeah, it was just during the headlights and, and the notion of an email program was like, was not, wasn't even, didn't even, didn't even register. Didn't even register. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I mean, hopefully got, he said his, he and his wife are up till three, you know, fulfilling orders. Uh, good for them.

No, it's really cool. Like, yay for them, like most important, yay for them, but missed opportunity in a way as well. Missed opportunity

[00:22:30] Ben Lund: and I mean, that's the beauty of, and I know you have a ton of experience in email, but, um, That's the beauty of email. Like you set up, like the opt-in, whatever. So whatever event that happens that gets people to your website, whether you're paying for the ads.

Yeah. Posting the local or regional paper or whatever it is, they come to your site and a percentage of 'em. Yeah. Instead of leaving, they're gonna be like, you know, I really like this brand. Uh, yeah. Keep me posted with some updates and. [00:23:00] Yep. And that's about building up your brand. Yeah. That

[00:23:02] Matthew Dunn: was like first of your five pillars I think was like, get the address

[00:23:06] Ben Lund: I know you can't have an email marketing program without getting those .

[00:23:11] Matthew Dunn: What, what, what, uh, where do you take your clients from there, at least in terms of their email program specifically? Yeah.

[00:23:18] Ben Lund: So first and foremost, you need to have some type of email collection. Yeah. I usually like to. Have something to offer a value.

So it is an exchange. You can't just ask, ask, ask, um, you'll get some of those emails, but it's not gonna be that substantial. So whatever it is that you think would be valuable, um, and then what I like to do is like set up that cadence for that newsletter. So, and it has to be realistic to the business. If it's a small business and the owners, let's say they don't hire rides to do it, but we are saying like, well, even if we're not gonna do it, you should be doing this.

And there's not gonna be enough time. I'm not gonna be like, you need your newsletter every week or every three days because it's just not gonna [00:24:00] happen. It'll be just garbage stuff. Yeah. Make it meaningful. Make it count. Whether that's monthly, biweekly, it doesn't matter, but whatever that you can be consistent at.

And then, um, and then we love. Automation. So anything that you can create and it will do work for you when you are not working, is the best. It's the absolute best. So if your e-commerce is the basic, like abandoned ch shopping card, um, uh, emails, it could be reminder to refill your, whatever, your beauty product or whatever it is that you bought, that will probably, you'll run out of product after that month.

Um, and then do like a nice flow of like, or a welcome series. Um, those automated emails are so much fun. It takes some effort to get off the ground and set up all the rules, but once you set it up, yeah, it just goes in. It's not a set in, forget it. You do have to look at the data and which messages are doing well and which ones aren't.

Sure. [00:25:00] But that's great. So, you know, I would always say just be realistic about. What the client can actually do. And if they obviously hire an email marketing agency, then they can take it all up. But just whatever's, whatever's realistic, um, that they could just set up, um, and I, and kind of go into what we're saying earlier, doesn't have to be over-engineered.

Start with that b plus product and then optimize today, but you gotta get something off the ground. Yeah. Everyone who's listening has a. Get an email marketing program off,

[00:25:36] Matthew Dunn: it in in some, in some domains. My observation would be that it's finally getting a little easier. I, I, I, I bought a new, uh, I started playing golf.

I know. Hit me with something, right? And I bought a new driver from this little company. I discovered actually the, the, the founder was gonna be a guest on this podcast. That's how I [00:26:00] discovered the company. Nice. Uh, BombTech, BombTech Golf Club. Really good. Golf clubs like 'em. A lot. They're marketing. Their email marketing is, is crackerjack good?

And I gotta think it's driving a whole bunch of sales for them because, you know, I got the, I got the inbound email like you were saying the other day, oh, blah blah, blah. We've got the new version four or seven wood coming out. So being a dummy, and I clicked on it, I go look, and I'm like, yeah, I don't really need a seven wood right now.

Sure enough, the next day, Hey Matthew, we still got a couple of seven woods left. I'm like, oh, you boogers, you've got it all wired. And I would bet you money, it's the Shopify and Clavio story. Yeah. Cause it, it was clearly really tight. So good. Like was specific to me, was specific to the club I looked at.

I'm thinking that's gotta be just turning, turning the, you know, turning the cash. Yeah.

[00:26:53] Ben Lund: Yeah. So a lot of the upfront wiring and is you takes time. Frankly, I. Yeah, takes time. But [00:27:00] thankfully with these, uh, integrations, yeah, it's not as hard as you think. It still does take time, thought and wiring and all that stuff.

Yeah. But, uh, not impossible. Not impossible. And um, and even just setting up some basic stuff will help out. But yeah, no, that's great. And like I love email marketing like that, where it's providing a good experience to that user and to that customer. Um, an email market maybe got a bad rap or in some sense of, oh, oh, that means you're just gonna spam me with emails.

And yes, no, no one likes that. No one wants to be spammed, but no one, but there's a great way for email if you opt in and you agree to have this type of relationship. And then it's great for everyone. It's great for everybody.

[00:27:44] Matthew Dunn: Jump, jump laterally for a second. So, with, in your work with clients has, has, uh, text, sms, MMS started to be something you're

[00:27:53] Ben Lund: helping 'em handle?

Um, we haven't really, we've tested maybe about a year or two ago. We just [00:28:00] haven't put the effort to really build out a practice on it. Um, so no, we, we personally don't. I know there's a lot of value in offering those services. Mm-hmm. because people, everyone's unique. Right. So, My personal perspective, I don't like getting texts from companies.

we all get enough texts every day, so I'm, uh, no thank you for that. But maybe the younger generation actually prefers that cuz they don't like go onto the Gmail or whatever it is that they want. There is a time and a place for SMS if people opt into it and actually prefer to be communicated through their phone like that.

Um, we just don't offer it just cuz we haven't really put in the effort to get it off the ground. Will we, I don't know, maybe in a couple years, but, um, not a high priority at this point, but I do know there can be a lot of value for people who like to engage with brands via text.

[00:28:56] Matthew Dunn: There, there was a, there was a point as [00:29:00] email was sort of be, was becoming completely commonplace, particularly in the workplace where people sort of pounced on email.

The way they now pounced on pounce on texts like Outlook. Outlook, late nineties, you could configure. So a new email gave you a popup on your desktop. That would make me insane now, right? Like no flipping way. Right. But there was a point in time where the number one, oh, it gotta stay on top of my email.

Yeah, you can't, but leave that aside and, and text right now has that high priority interrupt. Thing to it where when the phone goes ba bing, you're going to look at it. Yeah. Um, and if it gets so much use that that stops happening. So we have to have another secret channel that is a high priority interrupt, cuz that one's getting, eh, I don't know.

Like, yeah. We can only fit so many of those in our day.

[00:29:54] Ben Lund: You can only fit so many and that's why, um, I don't know what kind of phone you have, but I like the [00:30:00] iPhone and I'm sure Google has this as well, where you can just un. You know, different conversations where it's like, okay, this is love the group, but it's getting a little crazy right now, so I'm gonna just kind of step out.

I'll check in later today or tomorrow or not. And, uh, I'll let that wave kind of pass. .

[00:30:16] Matthew Dunn: Wait, you, you said it. That's interesting. Uh, goo having worked at Google, Google Micro or Google Apple and this, the, you know, the duopoly in mobile and you're an iPhone guy now. I'm an iPhone guy too, by,

[00:30:31] Ben Lund: That is true. And um, so at Google was pixel all the way and pixels are definitely good phones.

Um, yeah. But what changed me over is the whole texting, you know, at that, at that point you didn't wanna be a green bubble. I didn't want to, my friends are like, Ben, you're bringing stop this nonsense. Yes. And eventually I'm like, you know what? The iMessages, in my opinion are far superior. [00:31:00] I love the capabilities that you can do with it and the texting, all that stuff is just a better messaging experience.

So that's what tipped me over. Um, interesting. But, but still love a lot of other Google

[00:31:12] Matthew Dunn: products. Yeah, no, I, I, I use, I, I mean, we build almost everything on Google Cloud. So at an industrial level we're, you know, huge Google fans here. And then I've got a zillion Google services that I use. But my, and then my end device.

Tend to be Apple for a lot of historical reasons. And navigating, you know, fitting those two together is a, is a bit of fun and games. But I, I agree with you about messages and in fact, I, I wrote a, I wrote a, a, a guest post for, um, a. I think only influencers, uh, a couple weeks ago or a couple months ago about the iMessages and Google and Google's attempt to sort of shame Apple into opening that up and playing nice with rcs.

I think it's not gonna happen. No, there's no, [00:32:00] why would they? Yeah, they don't need to. And you're the living case study. Right ,

[00:32:06] Ben Lund: they don't need to and they don't need to for messaging and high adoption, so they're bringing other people to it, and it's a great, most of them, they, they innovated their messaging far better than Google's in day one.

[00:32:18] Matthew Dunn: So, well, Google had about like 10 or 12 messaging clients over the course of a decade, so, oops, there. And Apple just kind of stuck to the knitting and kept making the. Yep. Better and better. And it sort of snuck up. All of a sudden you realize, God, I, I use this darn thing all the time and every day. And, and Margaret and George, my annoying green bubble, France.

Ah, come on man.

[00:32:44] Ben Lund: the program.

[00:32:45] Matthew Dunn: Yeah. Get, get with the program Now. They're not going to, but yeah. Hmm. I, I, I'll be very curious and, and put this one in the, uh, you know, futurist hat for a, for an agency. I'll be very curious to. [00:33:00] If Apple turns that into a marketing channel, cuz I think they could. Yeah.

[00:33:07] Ben Lund: Yeah, absolutely.

I'm sure they could. I've been thinking the last couple years and the stop I'm sure isn't original. I'm sure I read a blog and it just deposited somewhere in my mind, . But, um, you know, apple, if they wanted to really open up their ad platform, like they can absolutely do that with. Messaging, as you mentioned, podcast, so many people use their devices, they can open it up and then, um, and then also, you know, the whole showdown between.

Facebook meta and Apple and the whole iOS cookie lockdown. Yeah. And you know, the conspiracy, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but the, the marketing conspiracy theor side of me is like, Ooh, this is a play for Apple to kill off advertising on Facebook, and then marketers are gonna need to put this budget somewhere and then Apple's gonna open up their own marketing platform.

All like closed loop, uh, tracking. Yeah. So that's [00:34:00] what I was kind of thinking for at the time. Like, ooh, this could happen and it certainly could happen. Um, So, yeah,

[00:34:06] Matthew Dunn: yeah, yeah. I, I, I don't think we're at the end of that game yet. I, I, I had a, uh, I had a guest a couple weeks ago, I think it was Jack Wrigley from ula, and he said, some someone's somewhere they've gotta pay this back.

Now Apple has, has to pay back this massive investment in walling the garden.

[00:34:26] Ben Lund: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Absolutely. So we'll see when it comes to fruition, but, um, Yeah, we will have, I'm sure ,

[00:34:38] Matthew Dunn: the, the, the thing about marketing is we live in this very careful knife edge thing of privacy. Yes. But, you know, efficiency and knowledge of the customer.

Yes. And, and constantly navigating the, the ethics of that back and forth. It's, uh, it's an interesting time to do this.

[00:34:59] Ben Lund: [00:35:00] It's true and it requires a lot of thought, uh, with privacy and European laws have a little bit tighter control over that. Um, but it's a good thing you should get. I am a firm believer you should always get consent.

Um, no one wants to be spammed, but, um, Having consent to be tracked or whatever, ultimately should provide a much superior experience as you just set it out with your golfing example. Yeah. Yeah. So there's that. There's that fine line. And if people opt out, like, don't track my stuff, like, all right, then you're just gonna get, you know, We are no ads that you don't even know why you're getting

[00:35:38] Matthew Dunn: it.

And that's true. That's true, that's true. Um, and as the theoretical cookie list, the third party cookie list, future shows up, I don't know if the experience is actually gonna get much, much worse or much, much better. I'm really not.

[00:35:56] Ben Lund: Yeah. My hope is it gets better [00:36:00] because it's relying as, you know, just like on all first party data, which really, again, opens up the need to get back.

What we're talking about earlier is you gotta start developing these relationships with, with folks in digital perspective because the cookie will die. The cookie will die. That is the truth. Yeah, and you have to. Actually have these relationships with 'em that you can communicate via email, via ads by uploading or other mechanisms.

Yeah. SMS for another example. So yeah, my hope is that we'll progress the industry and I mean, probably the industry was a little a lad behind that. Anyhow, I think they're a little too loose. . Yeah.

[00:36:44] Matthew Dunn: Platforms nicely put

[00:36:46] Ben Lund: some platforms more so than others. Yes. At that. But, um, so it'll be

[00:36:51] Matthew Dunn: interesting. Well, so where do you wanna, where do you wanna take now that you're, you know, flying, uh, flying your entrepreneurial plane, where do you wanna take it?[00:37:00]

[00:37:00] Ben Lund: Yeah, that's a really good question. Um, You know, as we're growing and building up the team, our focus has continued, continued growth just because we have a team to support now and we want to give out raises and promotions and really build up solid talent here. Um, and I think what's gonna happen is we're just gonna get into more verticals, more vertical specific clients that we work with, and build out some really strong expertise.

Mm-hmm. and evolve with the channels, but we're not a shop where. It's just the Ben Lunch show and that's about it. But cuz now you know, we have employees and we need to give them some great opportunity. And, and clients also like to see you grow because that's more talent and thoughts and resources that you have to deploy.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't think we're gonna be a miracle. Um, nor do I strive to be, um, cause I do flexibility and, you know, not being, I don't know if Merkel's

[00:37:58] Matthew Dunn: publicly True. Are you? [00:38:00] Are you a complete virtual shop? Like work from home, virtual shop?

[00:38:05] Ben Lund: We're hybrid, so yeah, we're based in Boston. Um, and we have a couple office rooms over here and of the folks that are in Massachusetts, new Englandy, people come in one day a week or more if they prefer.

And then we do have some folks that are remote and then, We just had our first in-person conference a couple months ago, and that was fun. Everyone flew out. Wow. It was great. It was so much fun. And so we'll definitely keep cadence of those at least once a year. Get the whole team together and for folks that are regional in and out as you please.

But everyone has their days of like, oh, I love going in Tuesdays. I love going in Wednesdays. And Nice. Yeah, it's a, it's a good approach. I think it works. Um, So pros and cons to remote versus in person? Yeah, I think hybrid is a good approach. Um, at least for us.

[00:38:57] Matthew Dunn: I, I like the sort of at will [00:39:00] hybrid that you just described.

You know, where someone can say, you know, what, being in on Tuesday when Fred tends to be here so we can do blah, blah, blah, blah. Yep. Works for us. Okay, great. Do that.

[00:39:11] Ben Lund: Right? Yeah. Yeah. Do it and. Try to make it fun. You know, we'll grab some coffee or if anyone wants lunch, let's, let's do that. Um, and that's good.

And there's a lot of value. I mean, even some folks that are remote further, let's say a four hour drive where they're not in for a month or so, but then they get to the office and they feel the energy. They're like, oh, this is, I was missing this. Yeah. And then even when they go back to their remote location, I think that carries on in those relationships.

[00:39:42] Matthew Dunn: So, yeah, I spent some time, uh, I spent some time at a subsidiary, uh, in my big corporate days. Uh, I worked for almost a year at the Australian Sub, and you. You could see the value [00:40:00] of face to face by being removed from it. The folks in the sub were like, okay, I think so and so out there in the US is responsible for this.

Yeah. But they didn't really know. Yeah. And you can't walk through the halls and find out or go have lunch with someone and say, wait, do you know the, do you know a guy in this group? Yeah. So the. it, it put a lens on what we're really experimenting with now in a lot of companies of what happens when you're not mixing it up live in the office all the time, when all that social fabric is, is not holding work together the way it did for, for a long time.

This is a big experiment. We're in the middle of a huge

[00:40:40] Ben Lund: experiment. Um, I think the pandemic four seven would be like, okay, work can be accomplished from home. Awesome. That's right. But now it's like the tide are going the other way. Like, well work from home's great. But there's a ton of value of being present and in person and collaborating, just having those like random interactions.

Sure. Actually, when I worked at Google, [00:41:00] yeah. I, I, I can't say with uh, for sure that they designed the office space like this, but this is what I've heard is at least in Cambridge, they have very long corridor. And they intentionally created space where people could like walk by and like bump into each other.

So if I saw my boss or my boss's boss or just a colleague or someone just like walking down the hall and I'm going, I'm not gonna just look the other way. And they're like, Hey, how's it going? You like stop and chit chat. But they create these instances that would almost promote yes, this, uh, this dialogue.

At least that's what I heard they did. If they did. That's super smart. Um,

[00:41:40] Matthew Dunn: that's smart. There was a, there was an architecture firm in Seattle. Boy, this is pull out of a memory bank here. There's an architecture firm in Seattle that was doing well, built a headquarters for themselves, but they intentionally capped the height and built it around its stairs instead of elevators because stairway [00:42:00] conversations.

Yeah. Cause you don't have elevator convers.

[00:42:04] Ben Lund: You're in and out so fast

[00:42:05] Matthew Dunn: and, and the whole protocol on an elevator is like, you know, shut up and look at the buttons for what, whatever stupid reason we do that. Right. But on a stereo, you're like, how, Hey, how you doing? Let's stop and

[00:42:17] Ben Lund: chat. Yeah, totally. Walk up.

What story are you going to? Hey, steps. How about you?

[00:42:22] Matthew Dunn: Yeah, yeah. And, and I suspect companies that pay attention to that level of detail, like you said, for Google. May see the, may reap the benefit of No, no, no, no, no. Let's, let's try and get, uh, some human time as part of our work time. Yeah. Uh, some live and face to face as part of our work time.

Yeah. Yeah. And I, I read the, I read, uh, Steven Levy's the Plex, uh, a couple months ago, which about Google. Oh, cool. And, and the, the dust. And I, I, I'm, I'm a Stephen Levy fan. He's, he's significant historian, but the back is, Look, both of the founders were Montessori kids. You need, you [00:43:00] need to keep that in mind to understand Google and I went, ah,

[00:43:04] Ben Lund: that makes, okay.

Yeah. I'll have to check that book

[00:43:07] Matthew Dunn: out. Yeah. You actually haven't been there. You might, you might really, really enjoy it. Yeah. Absolutely. Highly recommended. Well, let me let you get on with the day, Ben. What a pleasure chatting with you. Yeah, Matthew, I

[00:43:19] Ben Lund: really appreciate this. This is, this is a lot of fun, so let's absolutely stay in

[00:43:23] Matthew Dunn: touch.

Absolutely. So Conversa conversation becomes content, but the conversation's, my favorite part, . That's right. Well, my, my guest has been Ben Lund at, uh, rise Marketing Group. Where does someone find rise if they're, if they're like, oh, I not talked to

[00:43:40] Ben Lund: this guy. Yep, it's rise mkg.com. Uh, come to our website, leave your email.

We'll stay in touch, ,

[00:43:46] Matthew Dunn: leave your email. We'll stay in touch. All right, Ben. Thanks. Keep in touch, man.

[00:43:50] Ben Lund: All right. Thank you, Matthew.

[00:44:00]